[Name edited]
- 2013-11-07
David, I worked for your school.
I have first hand experience.
I have moved on and no longer need to worry about some sorry school giving me the run around.
Your school sucks.
I have only spent a little under one hour writing on this board.
Not a lot of time.
I (we) just want to stop any foreigner from making the mistake of coming to Ba Dai Wei because quite frankly it SUCKS!
John O'Shei
- 2013-11-06
Regrettably, the postings have become needlessly personal and those who have decided to go down that road really don't deserve an audience. We are all better than that however I hope those posters will have a great future wherever they may be and perhaps have learned a lesson that airing dirty laundry by naming names comes across as bitter rather than productive.
I disagree, this board benefits greatly from its anonymity and relative freedom of speech.
With all due respect, it is entirely possible that they've probably been forced to resort to such dirty tactics due to their treatment at your school. There's no smoke without fire and if I was a fresh off the boat foreigner, I would not want to risk accepting a job at your school with that slight possibility of going through hell and back, because flight tickets are expensive.
I've previously had a bad experience and I would attribute part of that due to failing to take on board warnings that were placed on forums such as this, before accepting a job. As for me personally, I do not like the personal attack route either, I prefer to use other tactics. However, as I have empathy for those that suffer at the hands of organizations of a similar nature, I am willing not only criticize but ask very uncomfortable questions of those who may have given fellow teachers grief.
Contrary to common belief, the posters on this board don't take every person that complains seriously, you do occasionally come across the odd poster that complains, then you take a brief look at his spelling, grammar, lack of qualifications etc and then proceed to wonder how he got a job in the first place. Then again, it was the school that hired him, so the responsibility to deal with the fallout rests with them. Regardless, I feel that it is the case that the vast majority of one-off complaining posters as naive, stupid or silly as they may have been; actually tend to have a good valid reason to feel that they have been treated wrongly.
At the end of the day, it is your word against theirs. Let them make comments, you are also free to respond, you are by no means defenseless here. We will happily judge who we believe to be the winners and losers of such squabbles.
David, Bai Da Wei
- 2013-11-06
I really wish there was a way to vet posters before they post in "School Reviews" to check whether they have had first hand experience at the school. Those who have never enter the doors of a school but write like they know everything about that school really have a lot of time on their hands. Perhaps we can start a thread that address the Pros and Cons of a Training Center or How Can a Training Center Help Chinese Students or Are All Training Centers That Bad? or something similar. Those with strong opinions can express them without accusing ALL schools (especially those they know little about) as evil. :-)
My recent post is addressed to those who do have first hand experience at BDW who have made public their discontent. Not sure if there are many school owners or managers that will admit publicly that mistakes have been made throughout the years with a commitment to do better alongside with a request that mistakes made by staff members also be acknowledged with a commitment that they also will do better.
Regrettably, the postings have become needlessly personal and those who have decided to go down that road really don't deserve an audience. We are all better than that however I hope those posters will have a great future wherever they may be and perhaps have learned a lesson that airing dirty laundry by naming names comes across as bitter rather than productive.
Even BETTER English! (Can you believe that?)
- 2013-11-05
See this advertisement for Bai Da Wei (so sorry that this has to be your chinese name David and now I'd reconsider):
Bai Da Wei Foreign Language School is based near the centre of the province capital city Changchun, north east China. Founded by an American expatriate ten years ago, today all our foreign teachers are supervised by native English speaking managers.
> They over manage and ridicule you to death! They think they are hot shots and never allow you to feel comfortable enough so you can teach in your element.
With unrivalled experience in supporting foreign teachers in the city
> Give those pesky maggots some flash cards that they can show the taxi drivers and let them be on their way by the way
we understand the kind of questions, anxieties and excitement you may have when considering a new job in China. At Bai Da Wei, we set the standards in teacher selection, support and education.
> and you lie when going through the contract in terms of everything!
Due to further expansion of the school this autumn we are seeking five new native English speaking teachers to join our team between now and August 2009. Our teaching excellence stems through our unique staff development and structured induction, fully preparing you for your first class.
> Good luck recruits.
Here is what you can expect (don't trust this claim):
• Rapid response to all queries from initial contact to the day of departure to Changchung (usually within 24 hours)
• Support at every stage of visa application. Working visas and medicals are organised and paid for by the school
> Whoop-dee doo!!
• Collection from Changchun airport
> Sounds like you're picking up a bag of shit or something. Am I still a human?
• Assigned an established foreign teacher mentor from the school before you leave home
> Never happened.
• Dedicated Foreign Teacher Liaison Manager. Chinese native that will help with everything during your contract such as booking travel or seeing \ a doctor
> How about a psychiatrist for the stress we had to endure?
• Monthly observations and documented feedback for your personal development.
> Try daily!
• Biannual Staff Satisfaction Survey. We want to know what you are happy with and where we can do better
> BS
• Weekly training sessions to help equip you in the classroom If you are looking for employment designed to grow your career and at the same time allow you to embrace and explore China and beyond, then you could be the kind of candidate we are looking for. Hereís what we offer:
> Career? Call it a bad luck calling for some shit you got away with earlier in your life that you're now repaying.
• Choice of contracts: 18, 22 or 26 teaching hours plus 2 hour weekly staff meeting earning you 6,000, 7,000 or 8,000RMB/month respectively.
> Wow! That's good money ;-)
Average local salary is 1,000RMB. One can live comfortably on 2,000RMB
> If your a Chinese street worker.
• Each class is taught with the support of a Chinese teacher
> Support? Try some bitch that is pissed at you for making more than her and trying to run you out by getting everything her way all the time!
• Attractive bonus scheme for student retention (with manager support to help you achieve this)
• Annual bonus of 7,500RMB on completion of a one year contract
> You'd be nuts to go one year.
• Total of 15,000RMB bonus plus additional one week paid annual leave plus 50% air ticket on completion of two year contract
> 2 years! Christ, if you're the "yes sir" "no sir" type of laddy who doesn't mind taking crap from low life's then okay.
• Four weeks paid annual leave
> You'll be in the hospital for the 4 weeks and they won't pay any extra money for the room.
• Medical cover plan
> Yup! You will need that!
• School managed accommodation (cost is 1,000 RMB/month or 500RMB if sharing with another teacher)
> No choice as you will most likely share in a crummy part of town.
• Free transportation to and from school from managed properties
> With a bunch of drop outs with no degree riding with you.
• Regular social events
> whoopee! i hit the lottery!!
What we are looking for:
> a slave.
By now you will see that at Bai Da Wei, we seek to provide everything we can to bring the best out in our teachers and with your input, strive for constant improvement of the school. In return, we look for teachers that have some or all of the following:
> those are good letters huh.
• a teacher that loves to work with children and is happy to teach through play, song and laughter (essential)
> no laughter with those nasty ta's taunting you.
• native English speakers from the USA, UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa (essential)
> Haha! South Africa for real?
• a Bachelorís degree (desirable but not essential)
> According to the law it is essential. Now you know this school is a farce.
• some form of Teaching English certification (advantageous)
> BS
• past teaching experience and lesson planning (useful)
> Get used to getting it wrong many times and having to re-send when you don't even have Microsoft Word installed on your computer which is the program they need you to use in order to deliver it. You'll get it wrong again and again and will get so tired of how much time and energy you're wasting. And in a class you won't look at it anyways. Amateurs need to do lesson plans and pros don't.
Some of our teachers are now in their forth and fifth year at the school and with an average turnover of 2.5 years we believe this is a testament to the quality of employment we provide.
> BS. Lots do midnight runners since they are disrespected and those on their high horse who feel like they own the world because they're treated close to being a human being are just fools. Clicky as hell.
Changchun is a large and industrious city with a strong heartbeat, without the living expense of other large cities in China. You can realistically save more than half your salary each month, even on the 18 hour/6,000RMB contract. Because Bai Da Wei teachers are managed by native English speakers, we have been through the Chinese employment process and understand all aspects of teaching English and living in China. This is why we have scrutinised all the issues in overseas employment and aim to make our teachers experience better than anywhere else.
> Changchun for the most part is butt ugly and you may even see a chinese dude whacking off in the middle of the street.
Cold as an ice as well.
If you would like to be considered for a position at Bai Da Wei, please send a covering letter together with your resume/CV and photo to Kyri at baidaweischool@yahoo.com
> If you consider yourself to be stupid then DO IT!!!!
More information about the school at www.baidawei.com
We aim to respond to all enquires within 48 hours. Bai Da Wei, setting the standards!
> Haha! What a joke :-(
Even BETTER English! (Can you believe that?)
- 2013-11-05
David says: I look forward to working with the incredibly talented national and foreign staff at the school.
Give me a break David!
Your school hires people who don't even have degrees (most are young 20 something's who have never achieved a success in life) and come over on an "L" visa which is later cancelled and replaced with a Z to residence permit.
Good thing Hong Kong is no longer allowing the visa run.
You're out of touch man.
You created this biased letter of yours - which was well spoken - and who cares as this is only to protect yourself, your school and reputation.
There are 3 people who've worked for your school that are exclaiming why NOBODY in their right mind should ever work there.
Probably more..
On other websites as well.
My opinion is to let it go.
Continue to live your happy life in China, write some more books as you're obviously great at that and tend to your wife.
Admit this as a failure.
DO NOT WORK FOR BA DA WEI or risk the consequences!
Even BETTER English! (Can you believe that?)
- 2013-11-05
Mr Puckett,
I admire your use of the English language.
However, you weren't around and nor do you wish to be around during the worst of times.
The school you founded has screwed over many, many people and that creates what we call bad vibes.
If you TRULY cared about this school just like any book you wrote then you'd be there for the remainder of your life to see to it that the reputation doesn't get shammed.
Shame on you.
If you couldn't see through the smog that your management run by Kiri and [edited] Yun Ming were up to no good then what good are you?
Glad now as I'm not needing to work for a school and am free to live in my little China without needing to worry about getting jacked all the time by a bunch of deceiving bastards which is Ba Da Wei.
It's all about the money.
And by the way... I make all my money now online ;-)
Good day sir.
John O'Shei
- 2013-11-05
I must compliment you on your very professional way of handling the situation with that open letter, but that does not excuse the fact that your school is most likely to be not such a great one. In fact, I feel slightly disappointed by the lack of Chinglish for us to point out and ridicule on this occasion, as I love making those little buggers squirm.
What I will say about the letter, is that it serves as a warning for those foreigners that wish to work in a training centre. Even if the boss or co-founder etc has the best intentions at heart, the vested business interests of what is ultimately just another private company with local business partners will prevail. What's more, training schools not only contain Chinese staff with questionable ethics, but will attract the type of foreign employee that is not of level that would usually be recruited by a good public school or university.
As you admitted yourself, there is a tendency to come across quite a few inexperienced brats that aren't used to not getting their own way, not to mention those who are avoiding the world of real work in the West, drink irresponsibly like they are still at college or get stoned all the time just because Mummy and Daddy aren't looking... Then you get the really creepy older individuals like those with extensive criminal records or paedophiles on the run. Therefore training centres can be stressful and uncomfortable places to work as you can quite frankly speaking, be thrown into the great big melting-pot of all those who have failed in life. That unfortunately means that you can't count on colleagues to be there for you, as to be honest you wouldn't even want them to give you their useless 'support'. Training centres can be lonely and horrible places to work indeed.
David, Bai Da Wei
- 2013-11-04
My name is David Puckett. My Chinese name is Bai Da Wei and I am the co-founder and Headmaster of the school which began in July 2000. I have recently been informed about this thread and would like to respond. I have lived and worked in China since 1999 and I have always been associated with the school even when away on sabbaticals and extended periods of time for personal reasons. I will be returning to the school in a few weeks from a six months' sabbatical and medical leave. I look forward to working with the incredibly talented national and foreign staff at the school.
Having been around for longer than just about any foreigner in one location in just about any city in China, I can honestly admit that I have made decisions and choices as a manager that I now regret when dealing with personnel and other school issues. I have also made unpopular decisions that I will defend as being the correct and proper ones. To be fair, we all know that at times, the teaching staff has made poor choices and mistakes as well. Striking a balance where everyone gets what they need has never been easy nor will it get any easier, after all we are dealing with many different cultures, expectations, experiences, market changes, technological changes... I also realize that anything I write here will be taken as double loyalty on my part since the school bears my name and is a reflection of my educational and personal philosophy and approach.
Rumors flourish in this kind of situation where foreign staff who arrive in Changchun have instant friends who live close by, share what life is like in Changchun and the school, eat together, play together, ride to school together and on and on. It is only natural that school stuff becomes a topic to discuss especially when someone feels a decision or way of handling something has not been fair. I get that and only hope that all of us can do better to not let discontent lead to damage in relationships before it is too late. I also hope that everyone, management and staff, can learn to reflect first then respond to a situation rather than react emotionally. I do know that this is compounded by the fact that we live and work in a country that requires a work visa sponsored by the school and negotiations appear to be one-sided as a result. We also all live where our typical support systems are not available and we become reliant on colleagues to be there for us.
If any one of the hundreds of teachers that have passed through the doors of BDW during the 13 years since the school started would describe my style, most would agree that it is a pragmatic approach; looking objectively at all the information and trying my best to find a reasonable solution keeping in mind where we live. Those teachers would also admit at times, decisions were made that may not have reflected what they thought should be the solution. Most would also admit that I have always tried to keep a reasonable balance between running a private school and delivering a quality educational product and have struggled throughout the years to keep that balance. Communication in any institution whether it be in China or any other place in the world is never easy. While names have been named and blame given to specific individuals have appeared in these postings, a lot of names have not been named, people who have carelessly and maliciously done damage to the reputation of the school for no other reason than they didn't get what they wanted.
So how does one approach this situation pragmatically? Never easy thus my need for sabbaticals and time away. However, I can honestly and without hesitation tell you or anybody else who checks out this thread when considering employment with BDW School that I love my students, the city that I have called home since 1999 and the many many parents, grandparents, friends, teachers and staff at BDW. I have grieved over those teachers who have had issues with the school and could not meet us with understanding and compromise or felt that we did not meet them likewise. I have fought as best as I could to make sure what we promise everyone involved, foreign and Chinese staff, parents and students, that those promises have been met. While this posting may have legitimacy in some of its complaints and I certainly do not or will not dismiss them, they are only a small portion of the overall situation. We are committed to provide as best as we can, a quality of life for our staff and have successfully demonstrated this throughout the years.
Yes, we can do better. Yes, we will do better and yes, I hope that our foreign staff in particular will once again gain our trust and know that we are committed to making their time with us a positive experience.
Lao Wai
- 2013-11-02
This is clearly damage control. I have been associated with Bai Da Wei and Bai Da Wei staff for a long time, and I watched as the company went from one where the teachers clamoured to get branch (campus) classes to one where the company, in its quest to put money over staff and its ever pervasive complaints about having too many teachers under hours, is now in a situation where should one teacher get sick or leave unexpectedly twice, the scramble for cover will be intense. God help Bai Da Wei should two people in either branch or kindergarten fall seriously ill at the same time.
The PR posted twice on precisely the same day, which is suspicious, but I'll bite.
The school is not horrible and you can certainly do worse. That said, the negatives outweigh the positives more and more.
Working as a teacher in China isn’t like a normal 9 to 5 job back home.
This is true. If you are lucky enough to be split shifted, depending on how far your kindergarten or branch campus is, you will spend anywhere from 1 to 4 hours a day commuting alone, compared to approximately 4 or 5 hours of actual work that day. (Changchun drivers are incredible at not moving anywhere quickly.) The school has concentrated its teachers in one suburban district of the city, but it has spread schools everywhere. This is not told to you during your interviews, so you will not know to expect that at worst up to 9 hours of your day will be spent out of your control, of which only about half will be compensated. Many teachers are lucky and are not split shifted, but many others are, especially new teachers who do not have separate "branch" or "public school/kindergarten" contracts.
To make matters worse, when you are compensated, it'll be significantly less than other places you could go. Starting wages are approximately 6000 RMB - about 600 quid or 1000 dollars. On China, that is on the low side.
I feel the school has looked after me, but as with any workplace from time to time there will be issues to resolve – you find that in any place of work.
This is true, but for both the right and the wrong reasons. The school is desperate for employees. If you should happen to walk off the job, the school will be happy to allow you back (at massive personal expense to yourself that may or may not be SAFEA permitted). In fact, if you do not even have the credentials for a proper visa, the school will still hire you and smooth out your paperwork. This is also in violation of the SAFEA accreditation they say they have. This includes people who do not have even a basic university diploma and people who do not come from recognised English-speaking countries.
Compared to other cities in China where you are on your own to obtain residence the English-speaking (or Anglophone-understanding) staff is anaemic/non-existent, Bai Da Wei will provide you an apartment and, in addition to Maria, most of the high functioning management and administration speak excellent English. The school will help you with matters such as sending home money, utilities issues and maintenance. That said, if you are a new hire, expect to pay 500 RMB out of pocket for your apartment; this was not the case before. In terms of vehicle traffic, you will be either be relatively close (~15 minutes) to both the train station and the downtown areas, or very far (~1 hour with heavy congestion/road works). You will be offered free transportation to your work site. If you choose to not use it because you will be stuck at a location for one or two hours, you will be told to pay for your own way home. On the bright side, if transportation cannot be provided for you, you will be reimbursed for your taxi fares. However, occasionally holidays will conflict with your schedule, and you may be told to use a taxi for a long stretch of time; after this time, you can be compensated for your expenses, which may have accumulated to several hundred RMB by that point.
As I alluded to before, the company is much more interested in its profits than in the well-being of its teachers. You can see this in the non-existent management: Maria is often not there; Kyri has left, presumably permanently with the other financial backer, neither of whom were ever interested in teaching, especially Kyri who has been happy to spend a quarter of his time not actually in China; Puckett, the namesake of the school, was pushed out of the school and although you will likely interview with him, he has been long gone and will not be returning.
If you are sick, money will be taken away from you and given first to teachers who are under hours. The school says the deductions are to compensate teachers who cover you, but when they are given to staff below contract hours, the school does not generally have to compensate them, meaning that that money is pure profit for the school. If you cannot work for two days, do not be surprised when 25% of your meagre salary has been deducted. The school is so paranoid about people taking leave for fun that they will physically assist you into a clinic just to be certain you are sick.
It will come as a surprise to nobody that nepotism runs rampant in China. Such is the case at this company, where the manager of the foreign teachers has this position because of relation to Kyri. She is a good person, but not fit to be a manager, and has done such things as asking teachers to run meetings, talking to staff like five-year-olds at meetings, and seems to take matters far too personally.
Training is non-existent. It essentially covers two or three days of observation, at which point you are on your own. There are some cursory introductions to discipline and behaviour in the classroom, but there is no professional training and you are at the mercy of the competency of the teacher you shadow.
Should you be on holiday, the school will not pay you until you have returned. Ostensibly, this is to protect the school from people who run on their contract; in practice this means that many teachers will have holidays without pay disbursement, causing stress during days off. In some circumstances, you may not get paid for a very long time.
Although schedules can be horrible, the school does not do what many other schools in China do - force administrative hours. Contracts are for 20+ hours, but never 30-40 hours as occurs in China and elsewhere in East Asia. Your duty hours are strictly limited to official school functions, meetings, and teaching hours. However, you will not be compensated for time spent planning lessons.
The school occasionally provides outings, but it does the bare minimum in order to say they are there. The last outing involved a trip to a nearby city, at which teachers were treated to a free bus ride and free room. The bus had to stop every so often for farcical reasons and the free room consisted of a large dormitory hostel-like setting with no showers. The savings allows your management to go to Europe for a month.
The majority of teachers are either somewhat unhappy or incredibly unhappy with the school. Almost half of current teachers have been at Bai Da Wei for over a year; previously, the turnover was not high. At this point, it seems that most teachers will not be resigning, and many contracts are expiring soon or have already expired. These problems are not minor problems that can be fixed with one-on-ones with the management staff. These are serious underlying faults with management and the company structure and the school must learn to accept that the problems posted here by the teachers are real and serious, and cannot be solved by sweeping them under the rug by spartacus/maelstrom or punishing the staff for sharing their experiences online.
This is a Western-run school. But make no mistake; this is not a Western school and you will not be made to feel as though you are valued.